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Post by The Jeffly Has Spoken on Nov 11, 2003 18:29:26 GMT -5
Ok, so the topic of this thread is less legal than it is a moral discussion, but I want to ask the oppinions of some long-time gun owners about this.
Me and a friend of mine who is pretty uncomfortable with guns were having a conversation about carrying for self-defense, and when, exactly, you decide to pull that gun and/or use it.
Do you lift your shirt at the first sign of trouble and then hope they back off, or do you wait till you know something is going to happen? Do you pull your gun and point, hoping that the thug will get the idea and back off without actually putting a muzzle in your face, or do you wait until absolutely neccessary before showing your iron but then you draw with every intention of shooting to kill?
I think this is an issue that everybody who carries a gun has wrestled with, or at least should think about. I'd love to hear what you guys think.
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Post by tptplayer on Nov 11, 2003 20:14:02 GMT -5
I think that everyone who carries a handgun has to think that through. One can’t be sure how they would react in an emergency but the general plan should be formulated. In Florida, you are legally obligated to retreat if possible. You must be “trying to protect yourself or another person from death or bodily injury” or be “trying to prevent a forcible felony…” I feeling is that if the BG had a weapon like a knife, etc. and there was enough distance I would display my weapon and give them a chance to retreat. If they had a handgun or long gun I would try to shoot first with accuracy. If they are threatening without weapon, your concealed weapon can’t be revealed. In that case, “threatening someone verbally while possessing a handgun, even licensed, will land you in jail for three years.” I don’t like being threatened but my pride isn’t worth 3 years in jail or even 3 days with loss of job.
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Post by MLB on Nov 11, 2003 20:47:55 GMT -5
In my opinion, you must know when the use of deadly force is appropriate in your state before you carry. Your weapon is not only useless to you, but probably dangerous to you if you are trying to decide if it is appropriate to deploy during a situation. I'm sure you know that the BG won't be pondering the fine points then.  |
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Post by tddude on Nov 13, 2003 0:19:38 GMT -5
The main thing they drilled into us at the Texas CHL was to yell out warnings before you shoot such as "Don't make me shoot you" and then after the unspeakable has happened and you are then able to go home to home and hearth, keep repeating this phrase, "I had no choice, HE FORCED ME!!!". Never waver from that phrase or state of mind. Tell it to the investigating officer and make that the theme of your interview and never deviate from it.
In Texas, a fist is also considered a deadly weapon so even if you are getting the snot beat out of you by fists only, shooting back is a "legal" solution. One of the first test cases in Texas involved an enraged driver that walked up to another driver and proceeded to beat him up through the driver's window. The driver then shot his attacker killing him. He was arrested of course but eventually no billed by the grand jury.
Personally, it would have to be an immedate threat to me or my family before my pistol comes out. Otherwise, I'll keep my eyes open and be the best witness I can. It's not so much as being afraid of getting involved but for the cival liability.
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Post by The Jeffly Has Spoken on Nov 13, 2003 1:51:33 GMT -5
All good points from a legal standpoint, but I'm mainly asking about the moral implications of going armed.
How about this: We all should know when we can legally use deadly force, in many cases you have to take a class to get your permit, and everybody should at least investigate the laws of their home state regarding this.
What I'm specifically referring to is not when it's LEGAL to fire, but when it's RIGHT. A much more difficult question, I think
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Post by Callahan on Nov 13, 2003 10:41:43 GMT -5
Wouldn't you think it's "right" to shoot when it is your very last option?
When you have done all you can to avoid a confrontation, including attempting to retreat, and serious injury or death of you and/or loved ones are imminent, then is the time to draw and fire.
That's why you never draw a gun until it is time to use it.
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Post by tddude on Nov 13, 2003 22:50:58 GMT -5
This is a question that all of us need to answer before we ever put on a pistol. For me it was an easy decision. The Lord would rather have me alive and working for Him than dead. The bad guy can fend for himself. If you are a Christian, I would suggest giving it some prayer time. Jesus commanded his desciples (in Luke 22: 35-38) to place being able to protect themselves over all other considerations. Jesus felt it was more important for the desciples to be armed than to be warm and fed. There are many other verses concerning self preservation but....., I digress and I certainly am no theologian so no Bible debates please.  If you aren't a Christian, you still need to "Look Inside Yourself" at whatever morality you are following in your life and decide where the hog eats the cabbage for this situation. If there are any reservations whatsoever, I suggest you not carry a pistol. Make sure that if you are confronted with a life threatening situation that you are able to use your pistol decisively because as Callahan said, don't pull it unless you are ready to use it. You will not have the luxery of time. |
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Post by Callahan on Nov 14, 2003 12:53:39 GMT -5
TDDUDE:
So, then it sounds like the other guy should be praying, too! ;D
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Post by tddude on Nov 14, 2003 13:57:38 GMT -5
Well, there is that as well but I'd rather be of the mind set that they haven't got one. |
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Data
Full Member
Posts: 150
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Post by Data on Nov 14, 2003 14:49:23 GMT -5
At the moment I am in fear of my life AND meeting the legal requirments for use of deadly force.
While its debatable if a fist is a deadly weapon, if the guy is bigger, stronger looking or if I am outnumbered, I consider that to be a moment that I become "in fear of my life".
But that isnt enough. They would have to have a knife or gun, or be within about 5 yards proximity.
If they are armed my guns are coming out and very likely the guy holding a weapon is in for a bad day.
If the guy had a gun and was pointing it at the ground I would put my hand on my gun, shout out a warning while simultaneously getting behind somthing like a car. (same for a knife)
If the gun is being pointed at me I will shoot with no warning and no hesitation (also while simultaneusly looking for cover)
If they are not armed, the hand is going on the weapon and the warning is coming out of my mouth.
One grim reality. If the guy has his gun out and is already pointing at you...there is a very damm good chance that your already being shot...a descent chance that you are already dead and dont even know it yet.
However this does not bother me in the slightest and I have already faced the fact that I would die....even EXPECT TO BE KILLED if Im ever looking at the recieving end of the barrel.
This helps me to remain calm and keep my composure.
In that situation I would not run like a school girl screaming for my life.....but I would except my fate as a "dead man" and my last dying thought would be "but Im taking this bastard with me".
Morbid? Vigilante?
Not at all....I sleep dam good at night knowing that he may very well get me....but his ass wont live to get anyone else (If I have my way).
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Post by tptplayer on Nov 14, 2003 17:19:04 GMT -5
I think a handgun could be a deterrent if the other guy had a knife or club and there is sufficient distance. If he has a gun, you need to take immediate action. The chance of getting shot is very real. Not all gunshots are fatal. Remember the attorney in CA.
To tddude: I would argue if I didn’t 100% agree. Being a Christian does not exclude us from self-defense.
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Post by Callahan on Nov 15, 2003 13:54:09 GMT -5
DA: I'm intrigued by your post . You said you had been fined for breaking a curfew? I have heard about curfews for under 18 but never one that applied to everyone. (I assume you are well over 18! ;D) What's that about? Does it apply to everybody? Doesn't even sound Constitutional...
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Post by MLB on Nov 15, 2003 21:16:13 GMT -5
DA,
That is just unbelievable! I am suprised the whole poplulation hasn't moved. I don't think I could live there. Curfews?!
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Post by The Jeffly Has Spoken on Nov 16, 2003 0:15:26 GMT -5
That it sick. I mean SICK. I don't think I could stand to live in that kind of marshall law society.
The police where I live are a little egomaniacal at times, but largely respected. There is plenty of crime here (my neighborhood has a reputation, for sure), but if the police find someone with a gun and a CCW they don't usually see a criminal, they see a person with no felony record who spent the time and money to not be a victim while still obeying the law. In short, they see an ally, or at least a good citizen.
Reading your posts also reminded me, in a creepy skin-crawling way, of the mandatory curfews the Nazis put on the Ghettos. Scary stuff, sometimes, even in this great nation.
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Post by MLB on Nov 16, 2003 10:53:05 GMT -5
I've been nabbed a couple of times for excessive application of the accelerator ;D but rightly so. I have no reason to hold a grudge. These people in my area a doing what they are supposed to be doing. They have my respect. The kind of crap going on with DA is another story  |
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