40

[Jonathan]

Macx said:

Ah Johnathan, you have beat Mr. Bond to the response. . . nothing like young quick reflexes But you have rushed your answer. Suzuki's motorcycle division is actually owned by Kawasaki, it is only their auto division that is owned by GM. Further, you would be hard pressed to find an interchangeable part between your car and your bike . . . so your logic is faulty in countering my asssertion that the SW99 and P99 are mechanically interchangeable. . . which they are. Since money is not a problem for you, why not go buy a SW99 (then you will have two 99s and not pay so much for the second) and start swapping parts. When you get to the part that won't transfer, tell me, and I will be glad to back off on this point. Until you find the part of a SW99 that can't be swapped for a P99 part, I will have to assume you are opperating out of misplaced pride, arrogance, buyers remorse, or ignorance.

The Walther is "proven" to shoot tighter groups than the S&W, by who? What empirical research? How many testers with what controls and under what conditions? Were they fired back to back? Same conditions of lighting, weather, time of day, etc? You toss out accusations of B.S. and then fail to cite any real evidence, heck even Mr.Bond cites his cheesy-says nothing FAQ website.

You "personally couldn't care less of the SW99" . . . well, ya better, cause you are gonna get one pretty soon all wrapped up in pretty Walther labels.

OMG. First off it is Suzuki that owns Kawasaki and not the other way around. If you don't believe me call any respectible motorcycle dealership and ask them. After all it is Suzuki that wins all the awards and not Kawasaki. 2003 Motorcyle of the Year : 2003 Suzuki GSX-R1000. 2003 AMA Superbike Champion: Suzuki GSX-R1000, etc, etc.



As for the P99 VS. SW99 issue...

Handguns Magazine: August/September 2003 issue. 99 Shootout.

I don't need to explain this to you as it would take too much time. I personally couldn't care less of your opinion of the P99. I already did my homework and bought the handgun I felt was the best. However the fact that others might care about your opinion bothers me a bit.

The SW99 is a copy of the P99 but there is only one P99. I could never puchase the SW99 knowing that the P99 was available. Not only was the P99 reported to be a slightly better performer than the SW99, it also looks slightly better in my opinion. But the real reason why I would never buy the SW99 because it is an attempt at a remake. Why not just buy the real thing?

I will give a more in depth response later today when I have more time...

Before I go I want to see one more thing on this issue...

It is the S&W that really is a Walther and not the other way around. There are some minor internal differences if I'm not mistaken that S&W changed in their version with the SW99.

Walther came out with the P99 in 1996. It wasn't until around 1999 that they formed an arrangement with S&W. S&W exports the P99 from Germany. Some .40 P99s have the S&W slide but thats as far as that goes.

The P99 is in fact a German engineered handgun.

[MrBond]

Jonathan / BlackDog / MLB

Macx s first gripe was price difference.

Walther P99 40 Cal $500.00 all German
S&W SW99 40 Cal $489.00 1/2 German

In case he can not do the math $11.00
I think it was worth getting the Walther over the S&W for $11.00

Ever since I mention this gun he has nothing but TRASHED TALKED IT. I know at least 3 of you on here have went out and bought it or order it already. I think he is becoming out numbered and has not realized it, that NO ONE IS TAKING THIS GUN OFF THEIR LIST. That it is an excellent handgun, no matter what he seems to think. The way he talks, he thinks he is some handgun specialist. Here is one quote from Macx (Springfield XD, which is superior to #4 (Walther P99 ) why is the XD Superior to the Walther P99 ? Was there a shoot out between these guns ? It really don t matter, you came on to this forum and trashed talk enough. I think everyone's is tired of it.

Jonathan & MLB
The best of luck with your new WALTHER P99 s
;D

Mr Bond

[Jonathan]

MrBond said:

Jonathan / BlackDog / MLB

Macx s first gripe was price difference.

Walther P99 40 Cal $500.00 all German
S&W SW99 40 Cal $489.00 1/2 German

In case he can not do the math $11.00
I think it was worth getting the Walther over the S&W for $11.00

Ever since I mention this gun he has nothing but TRASHED TALKED IT. I know at least 3 of you on here have went out and bought it or order it already. I think he is becoming out numbered and has not realized it, that NO ONE IS TAKING THIS GUN OFF THEIR LIST. That it is an excellent handgun, no matter what he seems to think. The way he talks, he thinks he is some handgun specialist. Here is one quote from Macx (Springfield XD, which is superior to #4 (Walther P99 )

Jonathan & MLB
The best of luck with your new WALTHER P99 s
;D

Mr Bond

Thanks Mr. Bond. I say screw the nay sayers.

[DocGlock]

Go with the SIG. You'll love it. Check out the P229 too. More around the size of the others.
DocGlock ;D

[MLB]

I really don't understand all the fuss about the P99/SW99 issue. It's been my experience that once a discussion degrades into a pissing match, little more info will be gained from it and what's left is mostly preference.

I happen to like the P99 for reasons that you don't need me to restate once again. I see it as a fine gun. I'll be picking one up soon. This shouldn't be a deciding point for you though. Hell, I may have extremely poor taste in handguns ;D

Look for the facts. Take a look at them all (no lemons in that bunch BTW). Pick the one you're comfortable with. Have fun. Be safe.

P.S. I had a hard time deciding between the Walther and the SIG. It wasn't an easy choice and I'd be happy with either.

[TA]

What the hell are we doing talking about jap bikes??

[Macx]

Talking about Japanese Bikes to help Jonathan out with his understanding of his the relationship between the 99 twins. Incidentally, while Suzuki is the third largest motorcycle producer in Japan, followed by Kawasaki in fourth, it is Kawasaki's heavy equipment and other divisions which give it the "who's your daddy" position in the merger with (relatively) weak, partially (auto division) U.S. owned Suzuki. How this relates to the Walther / S&W issue is: Walther while historically significant was not enjoying much of a market share in global gun sales, though they do have a model or two with relatively loyal (See Mr. Bond) following. Smith and Wesson is analogous with Kawasaki in this discussion, representing the diverse and strong corporation which bails the financially strained little company out for a share in R&D and brand recognition.

Oddly, I don't see myself as, nor have I claimed to be a handgun specialist. I am a realist, and corporate mergers, alliances, and joint parts sourcing don't send me clamoring for an excuse. I don't care for the 99 twins aesthetically, but that is a personal opinion and I am willing to accept that others may have equally valid (albeit of questionable taste) opinions. I don’t really see a visual difference in the SW99 and P99 save for the finish of variants and logos. I don’t really need some handgun magazine to do a “shoot off” of two or three guns in essentially the same category (the XD and the 99s are all service handguns in the $400 to 500 price range). Kind of like motorcycles, handguns are an intensely personal matter in which fit from person to person may make more of a difference than any variation in detail between models e.g. I know motorcyclists that would smoke Jonathan’s GSXR in any real road race (test this theory, I can get you a date when we will be at Deal’s Gap) simply because they are on rides that fit them better. At the same time I acknowledge that race prepped GSXRS have spanked most comers in AMA in recent years (but those are rather custom fit to the rider in much the same way that a full-house race gun is fit to its shooter). Regarding stock polymer framed service semi-autos in the $400 to 500 - range I personally feel that the XD offers a better total package. Which is better, a RM100 or a KX100? Which is better a SW99 or a P99? DR-Z400S or KLX400R? It doesn’t really matter, they are the same thing save this or that logo, this or that finish, etc. Show me the pile of parts that don’t interchange.

Most of my railing against the 99s has come from a low opinion of S&W semi-autos (they make fine revolvers) and the Mr. Bond / Jonathan coalition’s failure to acknowledge the 99s as the twin offspring of a joint venture which is minimally differentiated. I don’t really care if I persuade some or none to consider other options, though I would prefer they know what they were getting into before they make their choice. Ultimately it is the buyer’s choice though. I wouldn’t want Mr. Bond to dictate what handgun I could own, anymore than I would wish to dictate the choice of anyone else. Some people (like Jonathan when he first came to this board) come asking for advise, it is a fact that Mr. Bond will try to put a P99 in the hand of anyone who asks and I will consistently mention other options.

[MrBond]

Macx:
As far as your part swapping idea from one gun to another .


Dear Sir,
On a US built P99, the slide and barrel were made by S&W. They are
Dimensionally and materially different from the German counterpart. Also the FRAME RAILS are different & accessories from one wont fit the other.
Sincerely, Earl

Earl J. Sheehan Jr.
Earl's Repair Service, Inc.


So if its all GERMAN made the slides wont interchange CORRECTLY if you decide to put the US version on the GERMAN made gun. So much for swapping parts as someone said. hmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Mr. Bond

[Macx]

Now you are getting close. Score one for Mr. Bond, different molding of the polymer accessory rail does make them slightly different. Different accessories however are not different guns. However the slides not interchanging does come closer to making your point. The Springfield XD Sub Compact 3" slide won't fit on the XD Service 4" frame either, the guide springs are obviously not interchangeable. This may or may not make them different enough. . . . but for that I am willing to conceed the parts interchangability point to you. I am willing to bet your honor that you are correct on this point.

Had you stated that the slide of one gun could not be installed on the other earlier you might have saved us both quite a bit of bandwidth. You have met my challenge to "Show me the pile of parts that don’t interchange." Good job. That leaves my opposition to the 99 twins reduced to [glow=red,2,300]Most of my railing against the 99s has come from a low opinion of S&W semi-autos (they make fine revolvers) and the Mr. Bond / Jonathan coalition’s failure to acknowledge the 99s as the twin offspring of a joint venture which is minimally differentiated. I don’t really care if I persuade some or none to consider other options, though I would prefer they know what they were getting into before they make their choice. Ultimately it is the buyer’s choice though. I wouldn’t want Mr. Bond to dictate what handgun I could own, anymore than I would wish to dictate the choice of anyone else. Some people (like Jonathan when he first came to this board) come asking for advise, it is a fact that Mr. Bond will try to put a P99 in the hand of anyone who asks and I will consistently mention other options.
[/glow]

[Jethro]

kmad61
I own a Steyr M40 and I really like it. It really fits my hand well and I can shoot with more accuracy than my XD-9. It has lots of good safety features and I love the triangles sights, I actually wish i could get them on my XD. I think that the looks of it leave a little to be desired but hey, I bought the pistol for more than it's esthetics. I got mine used for a smokin' deal, but I have seen new ones out there for less than $400 easy. I use mine for IPSC shoots and really enjoy shooting it. i believe that it is competitive with other guns out there for a very reasonable cost.
I have not shot the H&K or the Sig (so I am probably a little biased for the M40) but I understand they are both very good guns. I don't think that you could go wrong with any of the 4 you are looking at, but if the price is an issue, I think that the M40 is a great choice.

[Ricochet]

Steyr M40

[MrBond]

Macx:
Only reason the ACCESSORY RAIL was mention, because everyone was saying that the frames are the same.

Granted the Walther has the SQUARE TRIGGER GUARD vs the S&W having the ROUNDED TRIGGER GUARD.

That is not the only difference in the frame. The accessory rails are different. Example you cant swap a laser from a Walther P99 to a S&W SW99 the cut out groove is different. Therefore its not interchangeable.
You made a point that Im willing to put the Walther P99 in the hand of anyone who enters the forum.

Well, your willing to take it out of the hands of someone just as fast, without giving them any justification as why this handgun should be removed from their list. I belive some of your words were WHY LOWER YOURSELF.

Mr Bond