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Post by Misfit on Mar 8, 2003 6:55:15 GMT -5
I'm torn between getting a 1911-style and a CZ97B. I am leaning toward the CZ because I already own a CZ75B, and am very, very happy with it. However, the 1911 appeals to me because it is a true-blue American gun, and any gun adopted any military is usually a heck of a gun. The bare-bones look of a military-issue style 1911 don't particularly appeal to me, though. That and the absolutely awful G.I. sights turn me off to the base 1911. Unfortunately, the base 1911 is nearly as expensive as a base CZ97B.
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Post by OneEyedFly on Mar 8, 2003 8:19:01 GMT -5
I looked at a bunch of 45's and chose the Sig P220 ST.
It appealed to me a little more than the others and I like a double action better for defensive purposes.
I also liked the H&K .45's but felt they are too expensive compared to the Sig.
Good luck in your search!
OEF
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Post by DoubleAction on Mar 8, 2003 14:46:52 GMT -5
Welcome Misfit;Quality pistols usually have a price which is the result of the production costs associated with manufacturing.The 1911 can be found by many different manufacturers but choosing one to build on can be very disappointing when cutting corners on costs.I start with Colt because most all aftermarket parts are manufacturered around the diminsions of the Colt.Another reason for Colt is the forged steel slides and frames.If your need is on an out of box target grade 1911 for under $1,000,in .45acp,I recommend Colt's Gold Cup Trophy,Model 05070X.It has a rounded slide top with a front Dove Tail Clark sight,A BoMar Rear adjustable sight,A checkered steel mainspring housing,a competition 3 1/2 lb.trigger,Colt's National Match Barrel,Lowered and flared ejection port,Colt's Gold Cup Trigger,Polished flats,and accurizing.These pistols are manufactured through Colt's Custom Shop but displays prices found on common production pistols;can be found for as little as $859.
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Post by Misfit on Mar 9, 2003 23:00:34 GMT -5
Yikes!
A grand for a gun? I must be in the ritzy side of town! (j/k) Actually, it seems to me that Colts don't seem to be available here in CA.
I'm not sure why, but I think it has to do with those idiotic "drop" tests that a gun has to pass to be sold in CA, and Colt doesn't seem to want to cooperate by giving the CA goons a gun to wreck in their testing - can't say I blame them, but I remember hearing something about this when I wanted to get a .357. I wanted a Colt Python, hearing that they are the best around, but was unable to find one in the several gun stores I browsed.
As far as a 1911, it is disappointing to me that unless I'm willing to spend close to a grand, I'll be getting an "inferior" gun, whereas a Sig out of the box at around $600 is one very fine gun, and does not require the fine-tuning that many 1911's seem to need.
However, I still want one! I guess it's like wanting a 1957 Chevy or '66 Mustang - there's far better cars on the road being made now, but these are American classics.
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Post by DoubleAction on Mar 9, 2003 23:15:52 GMT -5
Misfit;Quality guns do not come cheap,there is alot put into the manufacture of upper end firearms.The Colt Gold Cup Trophy comes tuned and accurized from Colt's Custom Shop,it is no jalopy.The Sigs are pricey too but a real bargain for what they offer.If your around the Glendale area drop in and pay the good folks at King's Gun Works a visit,or call them at 818-956-6010.They are Custom 1911 Gunsmiths and Authorized Colt Distributers.
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Post by Misfit on Mar 9, 2003 23:35:46 GMT -5
dubbleakshun, You're right, of course. I have always been a firm believer in "you get what you pay for", but also know that there are bargains to be had for the careful consumer. Perhaps I should clarify what I want in a .45. I am not interested in a match-grade gun. My eyes aren't the best anyway, and my current situation would not permit me to practice often enough to be competent in such an arena. What I do want is a nice 1911, military style firearm with decent accuracy OUT OF THE BOX, and one of course which feeds and shoots reliably. Perhaps I'm just a little gun-shy  because I've read several semi-negative reviews about 1911's, including higher-quality ones such as from Kimber and SA. It seems that quality control is somewhat spotty, and while some are absolutely perfect in every way, others need a lot of stroking and TLC before shooting to their potential. This does not seem to be the case with Glocks and Sigs, where any Glock or Sig out of the box will perform pretty consistently, without the services of a gunsmith. The less expensive 1911-style models I've looked at, the gun store clerk recommended that I get at least a guide rod put in, and recommended some other things which would put the price of the gun to where I'd be better off getting a more expensive model in the first place. Not to bring down the wrath of 1911 lovers everywhere, but I have wondered, if the 1911-style is so ever popular, then why isn't it being made and sold in huge numbers in any caliber other than .45ACP? P.S. :Just stumbled across this forum a couple of days ago, and I like it already! |
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Post by Slick on Mar 10, 2003 0:27:30 GMT -5
Misfit,
I feel the same way you do about 1911s. I really love the design, love the gun, but dollar for dollar they are (IMHO) overpriced.
Now nobody needs to flame in here to defend the 1911, I'm a fan of the gun. I also know very well that you get what you pay for. It just seems to me you get MORE of what you pay for from a Sig or Browning or HK. I have experienced some of the reliability problems you've heard about, and I'm hesitant to spend $800 or more for another gun that may need "tweaking". I realize that my experiences were a long time ago and they are supposed to be better these days, but experience sticks with you. My HK and my Sig have been flawless out of the box. Heck, I've shot a Ruger P90 several times and that's a nice shooting, reliable .45 and it only costs about $400! For some reason (probably it's wierd looks) there's a huge prejudice against Ruger's autos, but they sure shoot nicely! Go figure.
I think a Sig 220 is that "newer, better made car" you talked about.
That all being said, I fully admit that Dubbleakshun has a zillion times the experience that I do, and he really knows his 1911s. He's the guy I'd go to with questions.
As for me, I will have another 1911 because they are just that, the 1911. There is no substitute, nothing else looks like it, feels like it, or has as rabid supporters as it does. I just firmly believe they are overpriced. You don't get anything more for the extra $$ (IMHO) than being able to say, "Hey, it's a 1911!" Oh well, we just have to accept it for what it is, suck it up, and fork out the bucks. ;D Everybody's gotta have at least one. ;D
Just my two cents,
Slick
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Post by Misfit on Mar 10, 2003 1:18:11 GMT -5
Slick,
I think I saw (perhaps in another forum) where 1911s were compared to Harley-Davidson motorcycles. While they're both okay for what they do, they are bought and owned mostly for "show" rather than performance, but the extremely high popularity they enjoy as "real American classics" in their respective fields causes some price inflation, and there are better overall values for the dollar.
Darn it, though! I just can't squash that bug of wanting a 1911!
On an aside, I have held the CZ97, and, like my CZ75, I really like the feel of the grip. It just seems to fit my hand nicely. My hands are medium sized, with slender fingers, so the giant grip as found on the H&K is a monstrosity to me. Haven't gotten a chance to fire a CZ97, though - the ranges that rent in my area never seem to have one.
As far as Rugers - I really like the fact that Rugers are simple, reliable guns. To me, simplicity is beauty, which is why I'm such a fan of Russian designed arms - they just go and go and go, the only thing stopping them is running out of ammo. However, visual appeal still has its place, and I agree, pound for pound, Ruger autoloaders are some of the ugliest pieces around. Even their revolvers (modern double-action ones, not the cowboy style ones) don't have the elegance and nice finishes of S&Ws and Colts.
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Post by Paradox80 on Mar 10, 2003 2:35:06 GMT -5
Great thread. I am in the process of researching my .45 purchase as well. I have narrowed my search down to the following 3 guns.
H&K USP .45 Stainless (Probably Compact)
S&W SW99 .45
Beretta Couger F .45
Any experience or opinions on the choices?
Thanks
P
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Post by Slick on Mar 10, 2003 3:37:39 GMT -5
Paradox, I've got an HK USP compact (9mm) and it is one of the most impressive handguns I've ever shot. It's amazingly accurate and has been totally reliable. I've also been analyzing .45 choices and HK is high on the list. I had always wondered what all the HK hoopla was about, but I'm a huge believer now. Nice, nice guns (not so pretty though, but beauty is as beauty does). I do like the look and feel of the Beretta Cougar, but haven't shot one, so I'm no help there. The Smith never grabbed my eye, so I don't know much about it. The Sig P220 definately deserves a look. That's what I've finally decided on, just haven't bought it yet.  I hope that helps. Slick |
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Post by TC on Mar 10, 2003 8:05:28 GMT -5
my favourites: HK USPs, SIG 220, KIMBERs.
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Post by brian54 on Mar 10, 2003 12:21:29 GMT -5
Id go with the USP. If you want to go the HK route then maybe check out the Mark 23 although I think its pretty pricey. Also SpringField armory will release the .45 XD sometime this year but not sure when. Good luck on your purchase. Also the beretta wouldn't be bad it just wouldn't be my first choice.
Brian
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Post by DoubleAction on Mar 10, 2003 16:51:51 GMT -5
All the handguns that all of you mentioned are excellent choices for the chambering of the .45 acp,including the Sig 220,of which I own two, and is my personnal choice in a double action semi-auto pistol, has been for over twenty years,long before Sig set up shop here under the name of Sigarms.The only reasoning behind my recommendation of the Colt Gold Cup Trophy is that it offers everything in a 1911 that one could possibly desire in such a pistol,including the long over due installation of a rear BoMar sight on the Gold Cup Slide.That BoMar Factory installation alone represents $200. dollars or more if it is done on a factory Government Model,not to mention the many other extras.For a factory out of box 1911 this Trophy is a bargain hunters dream come true with a warranty, to boot.The full length Guide rods are alright,they assure that the recoil spring depresses evenly with every stroke of the slide and it claims to help recoil springs last longer.The downside to the full length guide rod is the metal to metal drag of the rod and the reversed plug.The slide seems to cycle smoother with an open spring.I usually only recommend a 1911 when a request comes in and don't encourage it as a first time pistol.It makes no difference how much you pay for a 1911,it's how much you will put into it later to make it better, and that is where the expense is found,the Trophy eliminates most of those expenses. Show me a semi auto trigger with zero take up,zero over travel,and breaks clean at three lbs with zero malfunctions and I'll show you a 1911.
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Post by whimpii on Mar 11, 2003 0:58:47 GMT -5
Although I am big fan of the 1911, there are some things you have to think about, what do you want the gun for. If you want simply want a great high end 45 go with a sig or H&K, but if you want to able to customize the gun you may want a 1911. another option is to look at the springfield product, it is the same gun as the colt just cheaper. I saw the mil-spec last week in pasedena for $479. As for not being available in CA, most of the 1911's are, I have seen colts, springfield, kimber, les baer, wilson, charles daly, and few others I can't remember.
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Post by ronnie 45 on Mar 11, 2003 16:36:22 GMT -5
go check out the ruger p97 or the cz right now that would be the choice i would make.
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because I've read several semi-negative reviews about 1911's, including higher-quality ones such as from Kimber and SA. It seems that quality control is somewhat spotty, and while some are absolutely perfect in every way, others need a lot of stroking and TLC before shooting to their potential. This does not seem to be the case with Glocks and Sigs, where any Glock or Sig out of the box will perform pretty consistently, without the services of a gunsmith. The less expensive 1911-style models I've looked at, the gun store clerk recommended that I get at least a guide rod put in, and recommended some other things which would put the price of the gun to where I'd be better off getting a more expensive model in the first place.